Farmers left with ‘No hope’ over badger cull

Farmers left with ‘No hope’ over badger cull

Farmers feel they have been left high and dry by the government

Andy Foot

Kevin Wallbridge

First published in News
Last updated
Bridport and Lyme Regis News: Photograph of the Author by

DORSET Farmers say they have been left ‘without hope’ by the government’s decision not to roll out the badger cull across the county.

Despite plans to relaunch culls in Gloucestershire and Somerset, local farmers feel that they have been left high and dry by the government. Farmers say many have already gone out of business and more will do so unless badgers in the county are culled.

The government came under extensive fire from badger groups after the culls in Gloucester and Somerset were labelled ‘inhumane and ineffective’ by the independent expert panel monitoring the cull. Now the government has said its proposed roll out to other areas will not go ahead.

Kevin Wallbridge, a fourth generation farmer from Hooke, who had 14 cows test positive in his dairy herd in May, said farmers feel the situation is hopeless.

He said: “They are putting ever more controls on the farmers with new restrictions and our cows are being slaughtered but they are not doing anything about why the cows are getting it.

“We were a closed herd and there was no way our cows got TB from other cows.

Without the badger cull all we are going to do is testing cows all the time without getting rid of the source of the infection. It is pretty hopeless.

“For farms like us it is very soul destroying. We are testing our cows every two months, which is not easy or particularly safe because they don’t like being tested. It is the most stressful time we have on the farm. I feel I am banging my head against a brick wall. It could put a farm like ours out of business.”

Andy Food, NFU regional livestock chairman, said: “There is tremendous frustration from Dorset farmers in that the longer it takes for us to get on top of this disease, the longer the pain.”

He welcomed the government’s 25-year strategy to eradicate TB and said farmers would be willing to wait for the cull – but only for a year.

“We cannot wait for the magic wand of vaccination and purely reactor culling, because there are farmers in Dorset who are giving up because of the pressures of TB and unless they can see light at the end of the tunnel more will do the same. We need to be resolute that this needs to be rolled out to other areas and Dorset needs to be the next one on the list.”

Andy Hamilton of the Dorset group of Badger and Bovine Welfare said the science didn’t prove killing badgers was an effective way of controlling TB.

He said: “This disease needs to be eradicated at source – cattle.

“A better test for TB, one that gives fewer false positives and negatives, would help. Tightening of previous lax controls of cattle movements has already yielded dramatic falls in TB rates. However, farmers must put their own houses in order too. “

Comments (39)

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11:53am Thu 28 Aug 14

Geoff Tymms says...

Its the cattle which spread the disease. Vaccinate ALL cattle NOW>
Its the cattle which spread the disease. Vaccinate ALL cattle NOW> Geoff Tymms
  • Score: 37

11:55am Thu 28 Aug 14

WykeReg says...

If I remember correctly the authorities in Ireland virtually wiped out the badger population to eliminate TB in cattle. It was a failure. TB remained and in fact increased in the herds. Beautiful creatures murdered for nothing.
If I remember correctly the authorities in Ireland virtually wiped out the badger population to eliminate TB in cattle. It was a failure. TB remained and in fact increased in the herds. Beautiful creatures murdered for nothing. WykeReg
  • Score: 46

12:32pm Thu 28 Aug 14

elloello1980 says...

most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals. elloello1980
  • Score: 29

12:55pm Thu 28 Aug 14

boobooweymouth says...

> the culls in Gloucester and Somerset were labelled ‘inhumane and ineffective’ by the independent expert panel monitoring the cull

Says it all. The pilot culls have been proven not to work. They were also needlessly cruel and cost a lot of money. It's outrageous that they are being continued in those counties let alone widened.
> the culls in Gloucester and Somerset were labelled ‘inhumane and ineffective’ by the independent expert panel monitoring the cull Says it all. The pilot culls have been proven not to work. They were also needlessly cruel and cost a lot of money. It's outrageous that they are being continued in those counties let alone widened. boobooweymouth
  • Score: 33

1:23pm Thu 28 Aug 14

cj07589 says...

elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
[quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive. cj07589
  • Score: -23

4:05pm Thu 28 Aug 14

FerryFan says...

A lot of people involved in this from the start haven't got an interest in the welfare of badgers or cattle. It has something to do with the 'if we can't kill foxes by running about in silly outfits on horseback with packs of dogs and all the 'tradition' that goes with it, then we'll find another cute furry animal to persecute'. And dress it up as stopping a disease in cattle.

The hunting with dogs to control foxes in it's old form holds no water nowadays and never will. And nor does making out badgers cause TB in cattle as a reason to cull. Vaccinate your cattle if you are that bothered stop persecuting the English wildlife. Glad it has been halted in our neck of the woods.
A lot of people involved in this from the start haven't got an interest in the welfare of badgers or cattle. It has something to do with the 'if we can't kill foxes by running about in silly outfits on horseback with packs of dogs and all the 'tradition' that goes with it, then we'll find another cute furry animal to persecute'. And dress it up as stopping a disease in cattle. The hunting with dogs to control foxes in it's old form holds no water nowadays and never will. And nor does making out badgers cause TB in cattle as a reason to cull. Vaccinate your cattle if you are that bothered stop persecuting the English wildlife. Glad it has been halted in our neck of the woods. FerryFan
  • Score: 27

5:10pm Thu 28 Aug 14

WykeReg says...

cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
Wow!!! Culling has reduced TB in 'diary' producing countries. Who knew that printing those useful little books could give you TB in the first place?

If farmers could only look up the word 'vaccination' in the dictionaries they'd learn something. Perhaps they're too busy reading their diaries.
[quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.[/p][/quote]Wow!!! Culling has reduced TB in 'diary' producing countries. Who knew that printing those useful little books could give you TB in the first place? If farmers could only look up the word 'vaccination' in the dictionaries they'd learn something. Perhaps they're too busy reading their diaries. WykeReg
  • Score: 24

6:17pm Thu 28 Aug 14

FerryFan says...

cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
Extremely what in dairy producing countries? Not in this country it hasn't if you mean successful. Pilot scheme shows it has been everything but...
[quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.[/p][/quote]Extremely what in dairy producing countries? Not in this country it hasn't if you mean successful. Pilot scheme shows it has been everything but... FerryFan
  • Score: 23

6:54pm Thu 28 Aug 14

cj07589 says...

FerryFan wrote:
cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
Extremely what in dairy producing countries? Not in this country it hasn't if you mean successful. Pilot scheme shows it has been everything but...
New Zealand implemented a coordinated aggressive cull with a long term management scheme in place which consequently has been significantly reduced cases of TB. I know this because, I used to work on a large farm in the north island's king country region. Granted it is not a pleasant thought to most townies but the countryside must be managed, the error here is the approach is disjointed and not consistent in its application and timing therefore so it will never be effective as a pilot scheme bound for failure in fact, you might as well not bother.
[quote][p][bold]FerryFan[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.[/p][/quote]Extremely what in dairy producing countries? Not in this country it hasn't if you mean successful. Pilot scheme shows it has been everything but...[/p][/quote]New Zealand implemented a coordinated aggressive cull with a long term management scheme in place which consequently has been significantly reduced cases of TB. I know this because, I used to work on a large farm in the north island's king country region. Granted it is not a pleasant thought to most townies but the countryside must be managed, the error here is the approach is disjointed and not consistent in its application and timing therefore so it will never be effective as a pilot scheme bound for failure in fact, you might as well not bother. cj07589
  • Score: -14

6:57pm Thu 28 Aug 14

cj07589 says...

WykeReg wrote:
cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
Wow!!! Culling has reduced TB in 'diary' producing countries. Who knew that printing those useful little books could give you TB in the first place?

If farmers could only look up the word 'vaccination' in the dictionaries they'd learn something. Perhaps they're too busy reading their diaries.
As far as I am aware, the vaccine has not be proven in practise otherwise it would be the magic bullet and everybody would be using it wouldn't they?
[quote][p][bold]WykeReg[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.[/p][/quote]Wow!!! Culling has reduced TB in 'diary' producing countries. Who knew that printing those useful little books could give you TB in the first place? If farmers could only look up the word 'vaccination' in the dictionaries they'd learn something. Perhaps they're too busy reading their diaries.[/p][/quote]As far as I am aware, the vaccine has not be proven in practise otherwise it would be the magic bullet and everybody would be using it wouldn't they? cj07589
  • Score: -9

7:25pm Thu 28 Aug 14

oldbrock says...

cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
from another "empty vessel" farmers are bleating about low corn prices after record harvest but we all know they will store it until the price rises, the world revolves round the poor farmer, even a protected species can be murdered on their lobbying, perhaps they will lobby government to make us eat a set amount like the act that was passed in medieval times that required corpses to be buried in woollen shrouds to help the "poor" farmers!!!
[quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.[/p][/quote]from another "empty vessel" farmers are bleating about low corn prices after record harvest but we all know they will store it until the price rises, the world revolves round the poor farmer, even a protected species can be murdered on their lobbying, perhaps they will lobby government to make us eat a set amount like the act that was passed in medieval times that required corpses to be buried in woollen shrouds to help the "poor" farmers!!! oldbrock
  • Score: 6

7:58pm Thu 28 Aug 14

cj07589 says...

oldbrock wrote:
cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
from another "empty vessel" farmers are bleating about low corn prices after record harvest but we all know they will store it until the price rises, the world revolves round the poor farmer, even a protected species can be murdered on their lobbying, perhaps they will lobby government to make us eat a set amount like the act that was passed in medieval times that required corpses to be buried in woollen shrouds to help the "poor" farmers!!!
Wow if you actually believe that all Farmers are wealthy by some preordained design you're considerably some way off the mark especially for smaller farm businesses. In this glowingly uncertain global market and every changing climate its imperative we support local farming output, the consequences of not doing anything would be unimaginable.
[quote][p][bold]oldbrock[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.[/p][/quote]from another "empty vessel" farmers are bleating about low corn prices after record harvest but we all know they will store it until the price rises, the world revolves round the poor farmer, even a protected species can be murdered on their lobbying, perhaps they will lobby government to make us eat a set amount like the act that was passed in medieval times that required corpses to be buried in woollen shrouds to help the "poor" farmers!!![/p][/quote]Wow if you actually believe that all Farmers are wealthy by some preordained design you're considerably some way off the mark especially for smaller farm businesses. In this glowingly uncertain global market and every changing climate its imperative we support local farming output, the consequences of not doing anything would be unimaginable. cj07589
  • Score: -1

9:42pm Thu 28 Aug 14

FerryFan says...

cj07589 wrote:
FerryFan wrote:
cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
Extremely what in dairy producing countries? Not in this country it hasn't if you mean successful. Pilot scheme shows it has been everything but...
New Zealand implemented a coordinated aggressive cull with a long term management scheme in place which consequently has been significantly reduced cases of TB. I know this because, I used to work on a large farm in the north island's king country region. Granted it is not a pleasant thought to most townies but the countryside must be managed, the error here is the approach is disjointed and not consistent in its application and timing therefore so it will never be effective as a pilot scheme bound for failure in fact, you might as well not bother.
When you use the word townie - be careful. Yes, I am a townie, but was born and brought up in the deepest farmland of Dorset and know how the countryside works, and I know all about countryside management. And so might a lot of people who disapprove of culling. The word townie is always used as an excuse by pro cull folk, the same as pro hunt trot it out. Could probably teach you a bit about countryside management, but here is not the time or the place.
[quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]FerryFan[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.[/p][/quote]Extremely what in dairy producing countries? Not in this country it hasn't if you mean successful. Pilot scheme shows it has been everything but...[/p][/quote]New Zealand implemented a coordinated aggressive cull with a long term management scheme in place which consequently has been significantly reduced cases of TB. I know this because, I used to work on a large farm in the north island's king country region. Granted it is not a pleasant thought to most townies but the countryside must be managed, the error here is the approach is disjointed and not consistent in its application and timing therefore so it will never be effective as a pilot scheme bound for failure in fact, you might as well not bother.[/p][/quote]When you use the word townie - be careful. Yes, I am a townie, but was born and brought up in the deepest farmland of Dorset and know how the countryside works, and I know all about countryside management. And so might a lot of people who disapprove of culling. The word townie is always used as an excuse by pro cull folk, the same as pro hunt trot it out. Could probably teach you a bit about countryside management, but here is not the time or the place. FerryFan
  • Score: 28

9:59pm Thu 28 Aug 14

cj07589 says...

Far point, but ive used in the generalist contextual sense that a lot of urban dwellers are extremely detached from the countryside environment and whole food production country management ways and simply get hung up on the emotion of having to make some pretty hard and unpleasant decisions which nobody enjoys having to make. It's soul destroying to see entire herds of cattle destroyed a lifetime of hard work and loving dedication down the pan which can be frustrating to communicate to those who have no interaction with how food eats up on their plate.
Far point, but ive used in the generalist contextual sense that a lot of urban dwellers are extremely detached from the countryside environment and whole food production country management ways and simply get hung up on the emotion of having to make some pretty hard and unpleasant decisions which nobody enjoys having to make. It's soul destroying to see entire herds of cattle destroyed a lifetime of hard work and loving dedication down the pan which can be frustrating to communicate to those who have no interaction with how food eats up on their plate. cj07589
  • Score: -5

7:54am Fri 29 Aug 14

D Bartlett says...

Wales in just 5 years has reduce Bovine TB by 50% with tighter cattle control and annual testing of cattle, no Badgers have been culled.
Unfortunately this Government and the NFU have failed the English farmer refusing to use annual testing purely because of cost, tighter cattle control has taken place and is already bringing a reduction in incidents but going ahead with a Badger cull is ridiculous and they know it, instead of spending the money to really attack the cause they are going against all scientists that have told them again and again Culling Badgers will have no meaningful purpose and may well make matters worse.
I'm now understanding why Scotland want to be independent, David Cameron is ill informed and doesn't want to listen to people that have the qualifications to help. Sadly it's what we have come to expect from a Tory government, head in sand syndrome!
Wales in just 5 years has reduce Bovine TB by 50% with tighter cattle control and annual testing of cattle, no Badgers have been culled. Unfortunately this Government and the NFU have failed the English farmer refusing to use annual testing purely because of cost, tighter cattle control has taken place and is already bringing a reduction in incidents but going ahead with a Badger cull is ridiculous and they know it, instead of spending the money to really attack the cause they are going against all scientists that have told them again and again Culling Badgers will have no meaningful purpose and may well make matters worse. I'm now understanding why Scotland want to be independent, David Cameron is ill informed and doesn't want to listen to people that have the qualifications to help. Sadly it's what we have come to expect from a Tory government, head in sand syndrome! D Bartlett
  • Score: 21

7:59am Fri 29 Aug 14

D Bartlett says...

cj07589 wrote:
Far point, but ive used in the generalist contextual sense that a lot of urban dwellers are extremely detached from the countryside environment and whole food production country management ways and simply get hung up on the emotion of having to make some pretty hard and unpleasant decisions which nobody enjoys having to make. It's soul destroying to see entire herds of cattle destroyed a lifetime of hard work and loving dedication down the pan which can be frustrating to communicate to those who have no interaction with how food eats up on their plate.
I live in the remotest of countryside, I'm speaking with well informed farmers that blame the NFU who represent 18% of the larger intensive farms for pushing the government for a Badger Cull rather than addressing the real problem and vaccinating cattle along with improved Biosecurity and tighter cattle control, they all say it's not Badgers.
[quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: Far point, but ive used in the generalist contextual sense that a lot of urban dwellers are extremely detached from the countryside environment and whole food production country management ways and simply get hung up on the emotion of having to make some pretty hard and unpleasant decisions which nobody enjoys having to make. It's soul destroying to see entire herds of cattle destroyed a lifetime of hard work and loving dedication down the pan which can be frustrating to communicate to those who have no interaction with how food eats up on their plate.[/p][/quote]I live in the remotest of countryside, I'm speaking with well informed farmers that blame the NFU who represent 18% of the larger intensive farms for pushing the government for a Badger Cull rather than addressing the real problem and vaccinating cattle along with improved Biosecurity and tighter cattle control, they all say it's not Badgers. D Bartlett
  • Score: 23

8:47am Fri 29 Aug 14

FerryFan says...

Excuse me for going off topic, but I would like to bring up foxes, it does have some kind of relevance to the subject. Hunting with dogs - now my point is that the pro hunt lobby want to bring back hunting. Ok, maybe the odd rogue fox needs dealing with if it has been PROVEN it has killed livestock and poultry. In that case maybe only two to three huntspeople, two or three dogs, a gun and a proper countryside attire worn by gamekeepers and country estate management in general - in other words a uniform. That is ALL that is needed to sort out one fox. Ban the use of hunt meets, the red jackets, the stirrup cup and all the tally ho and cameraderie that goes with it, it is all this that most people find abhorrent. So if hunting with dogs act was repealed, but allowed as I have suggested, the pro hunt will still kick off as at the end of the day it is all the dressing up and the tally ho they want.

Same as badger culling, heads will go in the sand at almost every other suggestion and only culling will do, vaccination and testing, oh, how boring, we want to shoot badgers, don't we chaps!!
Excuse me for going off topic, but I would like to bring up foxes, it does have some kind of relevance to the subject. Hunting with dogs - now my point is that the pro hunt lobby want to bring back hunting. Ok, maybe the odd rogue fox needs dealing with if it has been PROVEN it has killed livestock and poultry. In that case maybe only two to three huntspeople, two or three dogs, a gun and a proper countryside attire worn by gamekeepers and country estate management in general - in other words a uniform. That is ALL that is needed to sort out one fox. Ban the use of hunt meets, the red jackets, the stirrup cup and all the tally ho and cameraderie that goes with it, it is all this that most people find abhorrent. So if hunting with dogs act was repealed, but allowed as I have suggested, the pro hunt will still kick off as at the end of the day it is all the dressing up and the tally ho they want. Same as badger culling, heads will go in the sand at almost every other suggestion and only culling will do, vaccination and testing, oh, how boring, we want to shoot badgers, don't we chaps!! FerryFan
  • Score: 9

9:44am Fri 29 Aug 14

Monkton2 says...

The NFU does not represent the views of all farmers, let alone the majority of people who live in the countryside. It is up to the rest of us to tell the government that enough is enough and we will not tolerate any more of our badgers being killed for no other reason than to appease the NFU.
The results so far have proved that the cull is a complete waste of time and money, and more importantly, badgers' lives. I suspect, cynically, that one of the main reasons for its continuation is most politicians' inability to admit to being wrong.
The NFU does not represent the views of all farmers, let alone the majority of people who live in the countryside. It is up to the rest of us to tell the government that enough is enough and we will not tolerate any more of our badgers being killed for no other reason than to appease the NFU. The results so far have proved that the cull is a complete waste of time and money, and more importantly, badgers' lives. I suspect, cynically, that one of the main reasons for its continuation is most politicians' inability to admit to being wrong. Monkton2
  • Score: 15

11:02am Fri 29 Aug 14

elloello1980 says...

cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
And I'm pretty certain a farmer could not do my job without at least spending 4 years at university.

And to suggest all farmers will now go out of business is simply stupid on your part. are you a farmer? (could not resist, respect to the farmers that stick to their jobs rather than science).
[quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.[/p][/quote]And I'm pretty certain a farmer could not do my job without at least spending 4 years at university. And to suggest all farmers will now go out of business is simply stupid on your part. are you a farmer? (could not resist, respect to the farmers that stick to their jobs rather than science). elloello1980
  • Score: 7

12:55pm Fri 29 Aug 14

Martin Baillie says...

Written 05.06.13.


The ‘cull’ as explained by ‘DEFRA’ and the Environment secretary, is unrealistic, impractical, barbaric *and* idiotic, as it will have absolutely no impact whatsoever towards the eradication of this devastating disease, with also the very likelihood of seeing its expansion right across the country; (1) The killed badgers will not be ‘bTB’ tested so no scientific data of bTB within the badger pilot cull areas will have the opportunity to be collated as to be able to establish the extent of the disease and (2) once the badger killing starts within the pilot cull areas, the badgers are very likely to disperse from these particular areas taking ‘any’ Bovine TB with them.

I consider a more constructive and sensible approach towards this ‘’Bovine TB’ issue would be to deal with it on two fronts. - (1) Better cattle security (biosecurity) within the ‘TB’ areas, this could be achieved with today’s technical advances; firstly, appropriate electric fencing surrounding cattle grazing and ‘bedding’ areas; secondly, perimeter situated solar powered PIR (passive infrared) motion detectors with some kind of deterrent lighting effect; thirdly, CCTV within appropriate areas so as to search for any possible badger intrusion and fourthly, extreme restrictive movements of cattle within known TB areas. - (2) Cage-trap badgers within the known TB areas, TB test badgers and then to vaccinate with also microchiping the healthy badgers for release and humanely kill 'any' TB infected badgers.

Badgers eyesight and hearing are not that brilliant so they really can’t really be taken advantage of as any kind of wholly satisfactory deterrent, only their sense of smell supersedes that of humans, however, against the wind the badger’s sense of smell would be severely dampened, so other methods will have to be sought upon as possible deterrents. (1) Better fencing arrangement within the cattle’s grazing and yard areas; can be both of traditional type of fencing modern electric fencing implementation. (2) Although their eyesight and hearing are not that brilliant, they do shy away very easily from unfamiliar sounds and sights, particularly of human sounds and sights, so I don’t see why this can’t be taken advantage of in the way of something like strategically placed solar powered PIR’s (passive infrared) detectors with light and/or sound outputs. (3) Another possible deterrent could be 'hot chilli pepper' sprinkled/sprayed around cattle perimeters, although this will be less affective in wet/damp conditions. Badgers also don’t like the smell of ‘Aluminium Ammonium Sulfate’. - These suggestions will go someway in keeping the Badgers and Cattle apart; better this than the proposed indiscriminate unrealistic, impractical, barbaric and idiotic cull in which has absolutely no chance of succeeding.
Written 05.06.13. The ‘cull’ as explained by ‘DEFRA’ and the Environment secretary, is unrealistic, impractical, barbaric *and* idiotic, as it will have absolutely no impact whatsoever towards the eradication of this devastating disease, with also the very likelihood of seeing its expansion right across the country; (1) The killed badgers will not be ‘bTB’ tested so no scientific data of bTB within the badger pilot cull areas will have the opportunity to be collated as to be able to establish the extent of the disease and (2) once the badger killing starts within the pilot cull areas, the badgers are very likely to disperse from these particular areas taking ‘any’ Bovine TB with them. I consider a more constructive and sensible approach towards this ‘’Bovine TB’ issue would be to deal with it on two fronts. - (1) Better cattle security (biosecurity) within the ‘TB’ areas, this could be achieved with today’s technical advances; firstly, appropriate electric fencing surrounding cattle grazing and ‘bedding’ areas; secondly, perimeter situated solar powered PIR (passive infrared) motion detectors with some kind of deterrent lighting effect; thirdly, CCTV within appropriate areas so as to search for any possible badger intrusion and fourthly, extreme restrictive movements of cattle within known TB areas. - (2) Cage-trap badgers within the known TB areas, TB test badgers and then to vaccinate with also microchiping the healthy badgers for release and humanely kill 'any' TB infected badgers. Badgers eyesight and hearing are not that brilliant so they really can’t really be taken advantage of as any kind of wholly satisfactory deterrent, only their sense of smell supersedes that of humans, however, against the wind the badger’s sense of smell would be severely dampened, so other methods will have to be sought upon as possible deterrents. (1) Better fencing arrangement within the cattle’s grazing and yard areas; can be both of traditional type of fencing modern electric fencing implementation. (2) Although their eyesight and hearing are not that brilliant, they do shy away very easily from unfamiliar sounds and sights, particularly of human sounds and sights, so I don’t see why this can’t be taken advantage of in the way of something like strategically placed solar powered PIR’s (passive infrared) detectors with light and/or sound outputs. (3) Another possible deterrent could be 'hot chilli pepper' sprinkled/sprayed around cattle perimeters, although this will be less affective in wet/damp conditions. Badgers also don’t like the smell of ‘Aluminium Ammonium Sulfate’. - These suggestions will go someway in keeping the Badgers and Cattle apart; better this than the proposed indiscriminate unrealistic, impractical, barbaric and idiotic cull in which has absolutely no chance of succeeding. Martin Baillie
  • Score: 2

2:28pm Fri 29 Aug 14

February1948 says...

I am not a farmer, but I do live in the country. I also read that there was somewhere (I don't remember where) where there was, and never has been, any badgers but the cattle still had TB. Could one of the problems lie with the fact that animals are transported all over the country, in lorries, to abbatoirs, taking the disease with them? At one time, when common sense was king, there was a local abbatoir in every county/rural area. Any thoughts on this anyone?
I am not a farmer, but I do live in the country. I also read that there was somewhere (I don't remember where) where there was, and never has been, any badgers but the cattle still had TB. Could one of the problems lie with the fact that animals are transported all over the country, in lorries, to abbatoirs, taking the disease with them? At one time, when common sense was king, there was a local abbatoir in every county/rural area. Any thoughts on this anyone? February1948
  • Score: 7

3:50pm Fri 29 Aug 14

Artstudent says...

Remove all the badgers from the UK and you will quickly find a large gap appearing in the food chain.
That gap will be filled with the animals the badger usually eats, quite possibly we would end up over run with TB infected hedgehogs.
Remove the hedgehogs and the crops would be destroyed by slugs.
Remove all the badgers from the UK and you will quickly find a large gap appearing in the food chain. That gap will be filled with the animals the badger usually eats, quite possibly we would end up over run with TB infected hedgehogs. Remove the hedgehogs and the crops would be destroyed by slugs. Artstudent
  • Score: 5

5:27pm Fri 29 Aug 14

cj07589 says...

elloello1980 wrote:
cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
And I'm pretty certain a farmer could not do my job without at least spending 4 years at university.

And to suggest all farmers will now go out of business is simply stupid on your part. are you a farmer? (could not resist, respect to the farmers that stick to their jobs rather than science).
So do you disagree with the undisputed fact that controlled culling carried out in New Zealand has been proven to be exceptionally successful?

http://www.bovinetb.
info/newzealand.php

That's experience from the real world, perhaps you should stick to reality. Also you wildly underestimate what is required to run a farm and all that entails, I don't understand why anyone would be intent on insulting them when they haven't any experience of the industry, so I wouldn't expect you to understand. I'll let the facts per the link above do the talking and people can make up their own minds.
[quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.[/p][/quote]And I'm pretty certain a farmer could not do my job without at least spending 4 years at university. And to suggest all farmers will now go out of business is simply stupid on your part. are you a farmer? (could not resist, respect to the farmers that stick to their jobs rather than science).[/p][/quote]So do you disagree with the undisputed fact that controlled culling carried out in New Zealand has been proven to be exceptionally successful? http://www.bovinetb. info/newzealand.php That's experience from the real world, perhaps you should stick to reality. Also you wildly underestimate what is required to run a farm and all that entails, I don't understand why anyone would be intent on insulting them when they haven't any experience of the industry, so I wouldn't expect you to understand. I'll let the facts per the link above do the talking and people can make up their own minds. cj07589
  • Score: -7

5:34pm Fri 29 Aug 14

cj07589 says...

Martin Baillie wrote:
Written 05.06.13.


The ‘cull’ as explained by ‘DEFRA’ and the Environment secretary, is unrealistic, impractical, barbaric *and* idiotic, as it will have absolutely no impact whatsoever towards the eradication of this devastating disease, with also the very likelihood of seeing its expansion right across the country; (1) The killed badgers will not be ‘bTB’ tested so no scientific data of bTB within the badger pilot cull areas will have the opportunity to be collated as to be able to establish the extent of the disease and (2) once the badger killing starts within the pilot cull areas, the badgers are very likely to disperse from these particular areas taking ‘any’ Bovine TB with them.

I consider a more constructive and sensible approach towards this ‘’Bovine TB’ issue would be to deal with it on two fronts. - (1) Better cattle security (biosecurity) within the ‘TB’ areas, this could be achieved with today’s technical advances; firstly, appropriate electric fencing surrounding cattle grazing and ‘bedding’ areas; secondly, perimeter situated solar powered PIR (passive infrared) motion detectors with some kind of deterrent lighting effect; thirdly, CCTV within appropriate areas so as to search for any possible badger intrusion and fourthly, extreme restrictive movements of cattle within known TB areas. - (2) Cage-trap badgers within the known TB areas, TB test badgers and then to vaccinate with also microchiping the healthy badgers for release and humanely kill 'any' TB infected badgers.

Badgers eyesight and hearing are not that brilliant so they really can’t really be taken advantage of as any kind of wholly satisfactory deterrent, only their sense of smell supersedes that of humans, however, against the wind the badger’s sense of smell would be severely dampened, so other methods will have to be sought upon as possible deterrents. (1) Better fencing arrangement within the cattle’s grazing and yard areas; can be both of traditional type of fencing modern electric fencing implementation. (2) Although their eyesight and hearing are not that brilliant, they do shy away very easily from unfamiliar sounds and sights, particularly of human sounds and sights, so I don’t see why this can’t be taken advantage of in the way of something like strategically placed solar powered PIR’s (passive infrared) detectors with light and/or sound outputs. (3) Another possible deterrent could be 'hot chilli pepper' sprinkled/sprayed around cattle perimeters, although this will be less affective in wet/damp conditions. Badgers also don’t like the smell of ‘Aluminium Ammonium Sulfate’. - These suggestions will go someway in keeping the Badgers and Cattle apart; better this than the proposed indiscriminate unrealistic, impractical, barbaric and idiotic cull in which has absolutely no chance of succeeding.
It won't work as you can't just do some farms and not others, it needs to be all or nothing approach
The whole emotively charged matter and the science around controlling the spread of TB has been massively manipulated rife with mis-information.
[quote][p][bold]Martin Baillie[/bold] wrote: Written 05.06.13. The ‘cull’ as explained by ‘DEFRA’ and the Environment secretary, is unrealistic, impractical, barbaric *and* idiotic, as it will have absolutely no impact whatsoever towards the eradication of this devastating disease, with also the very likelihood of seeing its expansion right across the country; (1) The killed badgers will not be ‘bTB’ tested so no scientific data of bTB within the badger pilot cull areas will have the opportunity to be collated as to be able to establish the extent of the disease and (2) once the badger killing starts within the pilot cull areas, the badgers are very likely to disperse from these particular areas taking ‘any’ Bovine TB with them. I consider a more constructive and sensible approach towards this ‘’Bovine TB’ issue would be to deal with it on two fronts. - (1) Better cattle security (biosecurity) within the ‘TB’ areas, this could be achieved with today’s technical advances; firstly, appropriate electric fencing surrounding cattle grazing and ‘bedding’ areas; secondly, perimeter situated solar powered PIR (passive infrared) motion detectors with some kind of deterrent lighting effect; thirdly, CCTV within appropriate areas so as to search for any possible badger intrusion and fourthly, extreme restrictive movements of cattle within known TB areas. - (2) Cage-trap badgers within the known TB areas, TB test badgers and then to vaccinate with also microchiping the healthy badgers for release and humanely kill 'any' TB infected badgers. Badgers eyesight and hearing are not that brilliant so they really can’t really be taken advantage of as any kind of wholly satisfactory deterrent, only their sense of smell supersedes that of humans, however, against the wind the badger’s sense of smell would be severely dampened, so other methods will have to be sought upon as possible deterrents. (1) Better fencing arrangement within the cattle’s grazing and yard areas; can be both of traditional type of fencing modern electric fencing implementation. (2) Although their eyesight and hearing are not that brilliant, they do shy away very easily from unfamiliar sounds and sights, particularly of human sounds and sights, so I don’t see why this can’t be taken advantage of in the way of something like strategically placed solar powered PIR’s (passive infrared) detectors with light and/or sound outputs. (3) Another possible deterrent could be 'hot chilli pepper' sprinkled/sprayed around cattle perimeters, although this will be less affective in wet/damp conditions. Badgers also don’t like the smell of ‘Aluminium Ammonium Sulfate’. - These suggestions will go someway in keeping the Badgers and Cattle apart; better this than the proposed indiscriminate unrealistic, impractical, barbaric and idiotic cull in which has absolutely no chance of succeeding.[/p][/quote]It won't work as you can't just do some farms and not others, it needs to be all or nothing approach The whole emotively charged matter and the science around controlling the spread of TB has been massively manipulated rife with mis-information. cj07589
  • Score: 0

7:04pm Fri 29 Aug 14

FerryFan says...

No it isn't you just want a cull, end of, head in the sand to everything else.
No it isn't you just want a cull, end of, head in the sand to everything else. FerryFan
  • Score: 1

7:40pm Fri 29 Aug 14

cj07589 says...

FerryFan wrote:
No it isn't you just want a cull, end of, head in the sand to everything else.
Rubbish, I love and respect all animals they are intrinsic and essential part of the beauty of the world we share.
First you have got disprove badgers don't carry/spread TB, which hasn't been done as far i know. If it isn't badgers spreading it then problem solved, you need to be pragmatic and understand the incredible challenge reducing tb in our countryside is.
When you combine coordinated culls with a sensible management regime with strict quarantine policies on infected sites, continuous 2month testing etc it is proven to work which when considered without emotion, arguably and sensibly is in the best overall long terms interests of all affected by this horrible disease.
[quote][p][bold]FerryFan[/bold] wrote: No it isn't you just want a cull, end of, head in the sand to everything else.[/p][/quote]Rubbish, I love and respect all animals they are intrinsic and essential part of the beauty of the world we share. First you have got disprove badgers don't carry/spread TB, which hasn't been done as far i know. If it isn't badgers spreading it then problem solved, you need to be pragmatic and understand the incredible challenge reducing tb in our countryside is. When you combine coordinated culls with a sensible management regime with strict quarantine policies on infected sites, continuous 2month testing etc it is proven to work which when considered without emotion, arguably and sensibly is in the best overall long terms interests of all affected by this horrible disease. cj07589
  • Score: -5

9:01pm Fri 29 Aug 14

radiator says...

I think you will find that vaccination is not allowed under EU legislation, dont you think if a vaccine was available that farmers would use it?or are they too stupid as one so called expert has quoted?
I think you will find that vaccination is not allowed under EU legislation, dont you think if a vaccine was available that farmers would use it?or are they too stupid as one so called expert has quoted? radiator
  • Score: 0

8:16pm Sat 30 Aug 14

judu123 says...

There's a whole mix of issues here but one that I think everyone is missing is that if we (the human population) hadn't wiped out the badgers natural predators then the badger population would be more under control and we wouldn't have half the issues we have now.

At the end of the day we only have ourselves to blame - and that goes for all of us - no one is blameless - what's that expression - people in glass houses.............
There's a whole mix of issues here but one that I think everyone is missing is that if we (the human population) hadn't wiped out the badgers natural predators then the badger population would be more under control and we wouldn't have half the issues we have now. At the end of the day we only have ourselves to blame - and that goes for all of us - no one is blameless - what's that expression - people in glass houses............. judu123
  • Score: 4

11:15am Mon 1 Sep 14

JackJohnson says...

judu123 wrote:
There's a whole mix of issues here but one that I think everyone is missing is that if we (the human population) hadn't wiped out the badgers natural predators then the badger population would be more under control and we wouldn't have half the issues we have now.

At the end of the day we only have ourselves to blame - and that goes for all of us - no one is blameless - what's that expression - people in glass houses.............
Protecting badgers (and their setts) since 1973 hasn't done anything to help, either. Perhaps a case where where should have been beware of unintended consequences. With nothing natural to keep them under control (other than age, accidents and disease) it's little wonder that the badger population has boomed. It is also believed that they have added hedgehogs to their diet, which is partly responsible for the significant reduction in the hedgehog population. I have never seen a hedgehog, where I live - a very rural area - and I've lived here about six years. I have seen badgers, though. Probably sick or injured ones without the sense to stay away or desperate for an easy meal. I also, frequently, see or rather smell evidence of foxes (mainly in harder winters).

I'm certainly not in favour of allowing badger baiting - or any other blood 'sport' - but I am in favour of allowing population control where it would help reduce disease and damage. IMO if it is not already done, part of the process of dealing with any TB outbreak in cattle should be to test the local known TB carrier population in and around the outbreak area - and the entire population in the area should be culled if it is found to be infected. To minimise the possibility of infected badgers leaving the infected area a 'silent' method should be used - e.g., trapping and euthanasia, or gassing of setts, definitely NOT shooting.

This would minimise spread of infection to populations outside the infected area - badgers as well as cattle.

Either that, or badger fans should get used to the idea of drinking badger milk, eating badger cheese, and buying a couple of pound of badger at the supermarket. Note - I wouldn't recommend badger road-kill. Some farmers dispose of poisoned badgers by leaving them on roads.
[quote][p][bold]judu123[/bold] wrote: There's a whole mix of issues here but one that I think everyone is missing is that if we (the human population) hadn't wiped out the badgers natural predators then the badger population would be more under control and we wouldn't have half the issues we have now. At the end of the day we only have ourselves to blame - and that goes for all of us - no one is blameless - what's that expression - people in glass houses.............[/p][/quote]Protecting badgers (and their setts) since 1973 hasn't done anything to help, either. Perhaps a case where where should have been beware of unintended consequences. With nothing natural to keep them under control (other than age, accidents and disease) it's little wonder that the badger population has boomed. It is also believed that they have added hedgehogs to their diet, which is partly responsible for the significant reduction in the hedgehog population. I have never seen a hedgehog, where I live - a very rural area - and I've lived here about six years. I have seen badgers, though. Probably sick or injured ones without the sense to stay away or desperate for an easy meal. I also, frequently, see or rather smell evidence of foxes (mainly in harder winters). I'm certainly not in favour of allowing badger baiting - or any other blood 'sport' - but I am in favour of allowing population control where it would help reduce disease and damage. IMO if it is not already done, part of the process of dealing with any TB outbreak in cattle should be to test the local known TB carrier population in and around the outbreak area - and the entire population in the area should be culled if it is found to be infected. To minimise the possibility of infected badgers leaving the infected area a 'silent' method should be used - e.g., trapping and euthanasia, or gassing of setts, definitely NOT shooting. This would minimise spread of infection to populations outside the infected area - badgers as well as cattle. Either that, or badger fans should get used to the idea of drinking badger milk, eating badger cheese, and buying a couple of pound of badger at the supermarket. Note - I wouldn't recommend badger road-kill. Some farmers dispose of poisoned badgers by leaving them on roads. JackJohnson
  • Score: -2

11:51am Mon 1 Sep 14

elloello1980 says...

cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
cj07589 wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter.

Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.
I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.
And I'm pretty certain a farmer could not do my job without at least spending 4 years at university.

And to suggest all farmers will now go out of business is simply stupid on your part. are you a farmer? (could not resist, respect to the farmers that stick to their jobs rather than science).
So do you disagree with the undisputed fact that controlled culling carried out in New Zealand has been proven to be exceptionally successful?

http://www.bovinetb.

info/newzealand.php

That's experience from the real world, perhaps you should stick to reality. Also you wildly underestimate what is required to run a farm and all that entails, I don't understand why anyone would be intent on insulting them when they haven't any experience of the industry, so I wouldn't expect you to understand. I'll let the facts per the link above do the talking and people can make up their own minds.
yes, I disagree
[quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cj07589[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: most farmers are too stupid to hold any valid argument on this matter. Learn to read, then read the data from the last cull. it does not work! Fight the gov to invest in vaccination and we may be on to a long term solution that does not involve needless killing of animals.[/p][/quote]I bet my months wages you wouldn't have what it takes to be a farmer, I also think you're extremely crass to suggest farmers are stupid but as the saying goes 'empty vessels make the most noise' hope you enjoy being wholly reliant on foreign exports to feed your family because you've failed to grasp the bigger picture. Incidentally culling has been extremely in reducing TB overseas in major diary producing country which is wholly conclusive.[/p][/quote]And I'm pretty certain a farmer could not do my job without at least spending 4 years at university. And to suggest all farmers will now go out of business is simply stupid on your part. are you a farmer? (could not resist, respect to the farmers that stick to their jobs rather than science).[/p][/quote]So do you disagree with the undisputed fact that controlled culling carried out in New Zealand has been proven to be exceptionally successful? http://www.bovinetb. info/newzealand.php That's experience from the real world, perhaps you should stick to reality. Also you wildly underestimate what is required to run a farm and all that entails, I don't understand why anyone would be intent on insulting them when they haven't any experience of the industry, so I wouldn't expect you to understand. I'll let the facts per the link above do the talking and people can make up their own minds.[/p][/quote]yes, I disagree elloello1980
  • Score: -1

11:56am Mon 1 Sep 14

elloello1980 says...

radiator wrote:
I think you will find that vaccination is not allowed under EU legislation, dont you think if a vaccine was available that farmers would use it?or are they too stupid as one so called expert has quoted?
too stupid
[quote][p][bold]radiator[/bold] wrote: I think you will find that vaccination is not allowed under EU legislation, dont you think if a vaccine was available that farmers would use it?or are they too stupid as one so called expert has quoted?[/p][/quote]too stupid elloello1980
  • Score: -1

12:49pm Mon 1 Sep 14

JackJohnson says...

elloello1980 wrote:
radiator wrote:
I think you will find that vaccination is not allowed under EU legislation, dont you think if a vaccine was available that farmers would use it?or are they too stupid as one so called expert has quoted?
too stupid
@elloello1980

I've met lot of farmers and, believe me, few (if any) are stupid. Sometimes a bit single-minded, sometimes a bit narrow-minded, sometimes a bit inflexible - but aren't we all. Especially when it comes to protecting our businesses and livelihoods in the face of politics, ignorance, disinformation and misinformation. People who grew up in a 'Wind In The Willows' or cute and cuddly world often don't help, either, if they have not grown out of it and learned that the world is often 'tooth and claw' - not 'cute and cuddly'.

In an earlier post you stated "respect to the farmers that stick to their jobs rather than science."

I must say that I find that comment ludicrous. I would prefer my food to come from farms where the farmers consider the science of their work. If they did not I would frequently risk poisoning, and farmers would frequently unwittingly contaminate land, food and water supplies. They would destroy wildlife unnecessarily, and they would run their businesses inefficiently, either going out of business or raising consumer prices. Thank goodness that the vast majority of farmers are far from stupid.

For someone who claims to have a degree which took at least 4 years, you seem to be almost scarily unwilling to accept evidence based practice. I take it it was not a degree involving research. Go on - enlighten us. What was it - hairdressing? P.E.?
[quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]radiator[/bold] wrote: I think you will find that vaccination is not allowed under EU legislation, dont you think if a vaccine was available that farmers would use it?or are they too stupid as one so called expert has quoted?[/p][/quote]too stupid[/p][/quote]@elloello1980 I've met lot of farmers and, believe me, few (if any) are stupid. Sometimes a bit single-minded, sometimes a bit narrow-minded, sometimes a bit inflexible - but aren't we all. Especially when it comes to protecting our businesses and livelihoods in the face of politics, ignorance, disinformation and misinformation. People who grew up in a 'Wind In The Willows' or cute and cuddly world often don't help, either, if they have not grown out of it and learned that the world is often 'tooth and claw' - not 'cute and cuddly'. In an earlier post you stated "respect to the farmers that stick to their jobs rather than science." I must say that I find that comment ludicrous. I would prefer my food to come from farms where the farmers consider the science of their work. If they did not I would frequently risk poisoning, and farmers would frequently unwittingly contaminate land, food and water supplies. They would destroy wildlife unnecessarily, and they would run their businesses inefficiently, either going out of business or raising consumer prices. Thank goodness that the vast majority of farmers are far from stupid. For someone who claims to have a degree which took at least 4 years, you seem to be almost scarily unwilling to accept evidence based practice. I take it it was not a degree involving research. Go on - enlighten us. What was it - hairdressing? P.E.? JackJohnson
  • Score: -4

2:59pm Mon 1 Sep 14

elloello1980 says...

JackJohnson wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
radiator wrote:
I think you will find that vaccination is not allowed under EU legislation, dont you think if a vaccine was available that farmers would use it?or are they too stupid as one so called expert has quoted?
too stupid
@elloello1980

I've met lot of farmers and, believe me, few (if any) are stupid. Sometimes a bit single-minded, sometimes a bit narrow-minded, sometimes a bit inflexible - but aren't we all. Especially when it comes to protecting our businesses and livelihoods in the face of politics, ignorance, disinformation and misinformation. People who grew up in a 'Wind In The Willows' or cute and cuddly world often don't help, either, if they have not grown out of it and learned that the world is often 'tooth and claw' - not 'cute and cuddly'.

In an earlier post you stated "respect to the farmers that stick to their jobs rather than science."

I must say that I find that comment ludicrous. I would prefer my food to come from farms where the farmers consider the science of their work. If they did not I would frequently risk poisoning, and farmers would frequently unwittingly contaminate land, food and water supplies. They would destroy wildlife unnecessarily, and they would run their businesses inefficiently, either going out of business or raising consumer prices. Thank goodness that the vast majority of farmers are far from stupid.

For someone who claims to have a degree which took at least 4 years, you seem to be almost scarily unwilling to accept evidence based practice. I take it it was not a degree involving research. Go on - enlighten us. What was it - hairdressing? P.E.?
Nice try "pats you on head"
[quote][p][bold]JackJohnson[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]radiator[/bold] wrote: I think you will find that vaccination is not allowed under EU legislation, dont you think if a vaccine was available that farmers would use it?or are they too stupid as one so called expert has quoted?[/p][/quote]too stupid[/p][/quote]@elloello1980 I've met lot of farmers and, believe me, few (if any) are stupid. Sometimes a bit single-minded, sometimes a bit narrow-minded, sometimes a bit inflexible - but aren't we all. Especially when it comes to protecting our businesses and livelihoods in the face of politics, ignorance, disinformation and misinformation. People who grew up in a 'Wind In The Willows' or cute and cuddly world often don't help, either, if they have not grown out of it and learned that the world is often 'tooth and claw' - not 'cute and cuddly'. In an earlier post you stated "respect to the farmers that stick to their jobs rather than science." I must say that I find that comment ludicrous. I would prefer my food to come from farms where the farmers consider the science of their work. If they did not I would frequently risk poisoning, and farmers would frequently unwittingly contaminate land, food and water supplies. They would destroy wildlife unnecessarily, and they would run their businesses inefficiently, either going out of business or raising consumer prices. Thank goodness that the vast majority of farmers are far from stupid. For someone who claims to have a degree which took at least 4 years, you seem to be almost scarily unwilling to accept evidence based practice. I take it it was not a degree involving research. Go on - enlighten us. What was it - hairdressing? P.E.?[/p][/quote]Nice try "pats you on head" elloello1980
  • Score: 4

4:35pm Mon 1 Sep 14

Monkton2 says...

The point about vaccination being against EU regulations is a vital one.

If we produced enough(and no more) meat for our own needs, we could do away with the import/export of meat and live animals. This would solve a multitude of problems including animal welfare issues.. We could also vaccinate our cattle.

Most people like to buy 'local' these days and to know where their meat comes from.

Sometimes the simple solution is the best one.
The point about vaccination being against EU regulations is a vital one. If we produced enough(and no more) meat for our own needs, we could do away with the import/export of meat and live animals. This would solve a multitude of problems including animal welfare issues.. We could also vaccinate our cattle. Most people like to buy 'local' these days and to know where their meat comes from. Sometimes the simple solution is the best one. Monkton2
  • Score: 3

5:43pm Mon 1 Sep 14

JackJohnson says...

Monkton2 wrote:
The point about vaccination being against EU regulations is a vital one.

If we produced enough(and no more) meat for our own needs, we could do away with the import/export of meat and live animals. This would solve a multitude of problems including animal welfare issues.. We could also vaccinate our cattle.

Most people like to buy 'local' these days and to know where their meat comes from.

Sometimes the simple solution is the best one.
Local sourcing is always good. Reduction of food miles has many benefits (dead or alive). Even fruit, veg and grain can taste so much better when it's locally sourced, e.g. I detest rice in this country, but rice gown and consumed in Indonesia is fabulous because it hasn't spent months in container ships.

I read an interesting article about 'farming' of human organs for transplants (note - not harvesting -but growing replacement organs in a lab). With a lot of effort, up-sizing and cost reduction that could be extended to growing of animal protein for food. Maybe a long way off, but might be a possible path for one future of food production. My main concern would be what would be lost from the finished product.

With no animal protein growing out in the fields there'd be fewer disease vectors to worry about. I can't wait for the debate with the veges who want to interfere with omnivores' rights to eat animal protein grown in 'laboratory farms', though. We're coming up to some interesting times with food production and transport. There'll be some radical changes to make it possible to feed an overpopulated planet. Not all will be pleasant or welcome.
[quote][p][bold]Monkton2[/bold] wrote: The point about vaccination being against EU regulations is a vital one. If we produced enough(and no more) meat for our own needs, we could do away with the import/export of meat and live animals. This would solve a multitude of problems including animal welfare issues.. We could also vaccinate our cattle. Most people like to buy 'local' these days and to know where their meat comes from. Sometimes the simple solution is the best one.[/p][/quote]Local sourcing is always good. Reduction of food miles has many benefits (dead or alive). Even fruit, veg and grain can taste so much better when it's locally sourced, e.g. I detest rice in this country, but rice gown and consumed in Indonesia is fabulous because it hasn't spent months in container ships. I read an interesting article about 'farming' of human organs for transplants (note - not harvesting -but growing replacement organs in a lab). With a lot of effort, up-sizing and cost reduction that could be extended to growing of animal protein for food. Maybe a long way off, but might be a possible path for one future of food production. My main concern would be what would be lost from the finished product. With no animal protein growing out in the fields there'd be fewer disease vectors to worry about. I can't wait for the debate with the veges who want to interfere with omnivores' rights to eat animal protein grown in 'laboratory farms', though. We're coming up to some interesting times with food production and transport. There'll be some radical changes to make it possible to feed an overpopulated planet. Not all will be pleasant or welcome. JackJohnson
  • Score: 1

7:34pm Mon 1 Sep 14

breamoreboy says...

As I can sympathize with both the farmers who're trying to make a living and the people who don't want the badgers slaughtered, surely the Common Agricultural Policy could spare a few quid to sort the entire mess out? I'm certain that both sides want a sensible long term solution, not some silly, short term nonsense that does nothing except paper over the cracks.
As I can sympathize with both the farmers who're trying to make a living and the people who don't want the badgers slaughtered, surely the Common Agricultural Policy could spare a few quid to sort the entire mess out? I'm certain that both sides want a sensible long term solution, not some silly, short term nonsense that does nothing except paper over the cracks. breamoreboy
  • Score: 4

2:54pm Tue 2 Sep 14

hellojohn says...

Intensive farming, including massive overuse of antibiotics is the established cause.
But of course, the rights of business people must always come first.
Intensive farming, including massive overuse of antibiotics is the established cause. But of course, the rights of business people must always come first. hellojohn
  • Score: 4

3:23pm Tue 2 Sep 14

JackJohnson says...

breamoreboy wrote:
As I can sympathize with both the farmers who're trying to make a living and the people who don't want the badgers slaughtered, surely the Common Agricultural Policy could spare a few quid to sort the entire mess out? I'm certain that both sides want a sensible long term solution, not some silly, short term nonsense that does nothing except paper over the cracks.
One way to give badgers a fighting chance is to give them a commercial value. If we were allowed to eat them, some farmers might be even more willing to let them breed on their land - and TB testing would be done to ensure/assure their safety for human consumption.

Look up ISBN 0712358633 on Amazon. Yummy. ;-)
[quote][p][bold]breamoreboy[/bold] wrote: As I can sympathize with both the farmers who're trying to make a living and the people who don't want the badgers slaughtered, surely the Common Agricultural Policy could spare a few quid to sort the entire mess out? I'm certain that both sides want a sensible long term solution, not some silly, short term nonsense that does nothing except paper over the cracks.[/p][/quote]One way to give badgers a fighting chance is to give them a commercial value. If we were allowed to eat them, some farmers might be even more willing to let them breed on their land - and TB testing would be done to ensure/assure their safety for human consumption. Look up ISBN 0712358633 on Amazon. Yummy. ;-) JackJohnson
  • Score: -3

10:43pm Tue 2 Sep 14

breamoreboy says...

Possibly a solution to suit both sides http://www.bbc.co.uk
/news/uk-england-290
30920 ? I believe this was the technique used to eradicate smallpox.
Possibly a solution to suit both sides http://www.bbc.co.uk /news/uk-england-290 30920 ? I believe this was the technique used to eradicate smallpox. breamoreboy
  • Score: 0

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